- Reply byonMy reply to one Lawyer . . .Again you call names . . lot of luck . . actually I know CEO s of , and in fact one company I was an Executive owned several Insurance companies. Now as to your personal attack and just plain opinion - I have not attacked individual Attorneys , I have pointed out the issues with the system . .What do law schools teach? The answer to this question is up for grabs, in this post-formalist, post-realist, interdisciplinary era. And the answer to the questions of what law schools should teach is intimately connected to a much bigger question, “What should the law become?” Some believe that the courts have been and should continue to be the battleground on which the great political issues of the day are resolved. Ultimately, the aim of legal education then would be to produce lawyers who will plan the litigation strategies that will transform society and produce the rhetoric that will empower sympathetic judges and confuse those who are not. And what about judges and academics? They too are warriors, who wage the war with the opinion or the article, rather than the brief or the motion. This is a frightening future—because law that is a battleground is unlikely to achieve the rule of law—the very great goods of predictability, certainty, and protection from arbitrary power that only formally constrained legal decision making can provide.Many of the top law schools teach the principle of SOCIAL JUSTICE and how the law can be used to correct even the unequal distribution of wealth in the society. If you research enough you will find many article on that particular issue.The System is flawed just as was the Star Chambers of old. As you said above - Judges do all kinds of bad things but no one takes them on . . Where does a citizen go for Justice after being mistreated by a bad Judge and a bad decision - to the appeals court where other Judges will review the work of an associate . . Yes I have won in this instance but my did it take years and a lot of money. The Judge was sanctioned by the appellant panel but he is still on the bench harming society with bad law.I am not a Lawyer hater - except maybe when they become Politicians . . for the vast majority as you know are redistribution supporting far left LIBERALS. Just look at the trial lawyers political donations. Tort reform is a must and at the State level - all civil courts should be run like small claims courts - present the evidence from both sides - take witness testimony - the Judge or the Jury then renders a decision on the merits and the facts on hand.No - precedent cases are required . . for all they do is increase costs and bring confusion to the real issues being questioned . . Case theory is just that theory and can not represent 100% of the issues of the day so dismiss it as immaterial. The law is in statues and cases do not have the power to change the Constitution at the State or Federal level; nor do they have the power to change statutes. They are therefor just OPINIONS and as you know OPINIONS are never findings of facts.
- my guess is that the SCOTUS will point out that the Declaration of Independence is a statement of reasons for rebellion from England and is not intended as a governing document.
I have debated a lot of Lawyers and Judges in my long life. They do not yield power with out a very long and expensive fight which they have designed to protect themselves. How many Judges are bad? Now how many have been impeached? The only one I am aware of is now a member of the U.S. House of Representatives - what a country disbarred and impeached and then sent to Congress - Mr. Hastings what a guy - you think he worries about the old Constitution?
- The Executive . . . holds the sword . . . The Legislative [Congress] . . . commands the purse . . . The Judiciary . . . has no influence over either sword or the purse . . . can take no active resolution whatever . . . liberty can have nothing to fear from the Judiciary alone, [as usurpers] but would have every thing to fear its union with either of the other departments . . . [in usurping power]
The Federalist (no. 78, by Alexander Hamilton)
- How many years did the Founders and Framers take to reach a consensus? They had parties among themselves they were called Federalists and anti-Federalists. So, if I READ MY HISTORY correctly the founders started the two party system? Eventually they were Wiggs and Democrats and then other names finally settling on Republicans and Democrats.
Lincoln did his share of damage so did FDR but Congress has done the most damage by permitting the the Executive branch to declare a war without Congress' approval by calling it a police action. They have allowed the SCOTUS to usurp powers for 100 years. Yes, they have failed to act because to do so would reduce their own powers and return the powers to the States. Leaving Congress with only the enumerated powers of Article I section 8.
- But what is scarey is some months back Obama said that he didn't need congress. Now that is way scary.
- Obama feels he is Lincoln and FDR rolled into one super President. NOT!
- Obama isn't close to being Abraham Lincoln. Not even close. He is closer to being a FDR. Just my thoughts.
- Obama has done a good job of dividing the many States - RED Vs. BLUE. He also just ignore the Constitution like Lincoln.
- As we have all learned by the usurpation of the constitution by the Congress, the Executive and the Judicial branches - "WORDS HAVE MEANINGS". The Progressives of the FDR period and before redefined the words and thus we have the out of control overreaching Federal Congress, SCOTUS and Executive governments. They are all outside the "original" words and meaning of the Constitution and the Founders/Frames/Ratifiers works but they go on because they have block "WE THE PEOPLE FROM THE COURT HOUSE REMEDIES" we have been left with but the States and the Article V remedy.
- unnamed author . ."it has been decided that the individuals rights to make this choice are protected by the constitution." Really?
OK hear comes my socially conservative side. Bull-ony. Nine people in black robes rendered an opinion. They themselves will tell you each branch has a responsibility to decide for themselves as well. If fact they have told us the WE have to decide what is or is not Constitutional if we don't agree with them.
Is there a federal right to take innocent life or to make me pay for it? Not according to the Laws of Nature and of Natures God. Not according to me.
- Mangus, you sound just like Dr. Larry Arnn. Great posts.
- You know that you are being sucked into the BRITISH CASE LAW PRECEDENT THEORY VORTEX because the Courts use British Common law and not Constitutional law as it's base cases decided in error will be followed with more cases decided in error thus forming the base of known law. They have even gone so far as using Foreign law to decide American cases.
Just like one of the sitting Justices said under Senate confirmation when asked about Roe vs Wade; he said he would treat it under Stare decisis (settled law) and therefore the law of the land. It was the 14th amendment that was usurped by the Court to "CREATE" a new "RIGHT". Man can not create rights they come from the Creator. The Court does not have the power to amend, create, change, or repeal laws; it can not order any enforcement actions - all those things require the legislatures of the States or Federal government.
One bad law passed upon usurped power on top of one more bad law passed upon usurped power does not a Settled law make. Each court case should stand or fall on it's own merits under the Constitution and the legal statutes of the Federal and State as enumerated by Citing the Constitutional requirements have been met before it can go forward. No previous cases or foreign laws can be used as a basis for the findings of fact and law in the current case before the Court - FRESH VIEW THEORY.
- I think you misread __ I believe he is condemning the same thing you are.
AND I most heartily agree with you about getting out of the mindset that 'Case Law based on 'precedence' is settled law. EVEN John Roberts fell into that trap in his hearings!
- Is not the center piece of all Tea Party groups - RESTORING THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION ? If that is true then would it not follow that we will return all powers not enumerated in Article I section 8 to the States - now then all previous issues passed by Congress or the Courts are in the words of the the Founders/Framers/Ratifiers void as if they never occurred from the day of the usurpation.
Extending these words means the States will have considerable work to perform - selecting what they need and what they do not need as most Federal laws were one size fits all.Then and only then will the citizens of the States select legislatures that address the particular set of social and charitable issues they feel fits the needs of that particular State.
You see, fixing the one overriding problem leads to the review and repair of all issues each State see as important. Freedom is not free it requires a vast amount of energy to keep government in check. As Franklin said when asked what kind of government the Founders gave America he replied something like this "WE GAVE YOU A REPUBLIC, IF YOU CAN KEEP IT."
- Amen & Amen.
- Seems to make good sense, it appears that all side of the spectrum is active here from left to right. the positions just depend on the particular issue being debated. Most of us would agree that debate is a good thing for we all advance our knowledge base from the premises presented and the counter statements made.
My premise is that the current Federal Government - Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches have all and are continuing to usurp the Constitution. Quotes from Washington's FAREWELL ADDRESS:
ONLY THE PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR CONSTITUTION
"NO CHANGE BY USURPATION" IS THE FUNDAMENTAL MOREL PRINCIPLE UNDERLYING SELF-GOVERNMENT AND RULE - BY - LAW
- I am of the ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION IS THE RULE - BY - LAW where as your legal studies and references to law schools which I am familiar with base their entire existence on CASE LAW THEORY - they are trained that PRECEDENT change or alter statues [State and Federal] and even alter the CONSTITUTION FROM IT'S ORIGINAL FORM. This belief system is flawed in that the Constitution was written to stand for all time unmodified except through the Article V Amendment process.So, If the FF&R said what they meant and meant what they said - there is no such thing as FRAMEWORK there are words and the meaning of the wards at the time they were written not modified by time, place and use. What law schools teach then becomes RULE - BY - MAN as men in robes and suits can alter the CONSTITUTION at will. We all know that there is zero support in the actual words of the RULING DOCUMENT - the CONSTITUTION. So, to argue that the courts, the legislature or the executive can change the meaning of words and clauses is repugnant to the very existence of a written Constitutional Republic.I now will quote from a book by Hamilton Abert Long [Your American Yardstick] page 146 - 147It is noteworthy that the Virginia Resolution of 1798 pertaining to Federal laws, did not use any language such as the used in above quoted Wisconsin Resolutions: "void, and of no force." In the 1830's Madison wrote a lengthy manuscript: "Notes on Nullification" in which he emphasized that the Virginia Resolutions were not intended to attempt nullification of any Federal law therefore were not a precedent for the 1832 "Ordinance of Nullification" of South Carolina, which he considered unsound. He had also discussed this topic at length in a 1830 letter to Edward Everett and a 1832 letter to N.P. Trist. Madison knew, of course, what Hamilton had made entirely clear in 1787-1788 in the Federalist (especially number 78 also number 33) to have been the understanding fo the Framing Convention: That it is the Constitution only, as the "supreme Law of the Land," which can-and does automatically-make null and void any conflicting Act of Congress. This applies equally to the other things governmental, such as Supreme court decisions. The State Ratifying Conventions also understood this. The controlling principle is this: no legislature, or government, of a State has any power, under the Constitutional system, to nullify and Federal law, or Federal court decision, and the converse is equally true. this basic principle was noted in Federalist Number 34 by Hamilton (referring to a law as and act: " . . . there is no power on either side to annul the the acts of the other." Any annulling is by the Constitution.An Important consideration needs stressing at this point. It is that a protest by a State legislature against claimed usurpation, or abuse of power is entirely sound constitutionally and traditionally as one the peaceable remedies (within the Constitutional system) available to the State, in any such situation, as indicated expressly in the Federalist number 46 by Madison. Any such Protest by a State legislature, thus acting within the constitutional system, amounts of course to nothing more that a declaration of opinion of that body without in the least affecting the fact of constitutionality, or unconstitutionality, as the case may be, of the Act of Congress in question. Madison made the point expressly in his clarifying discussion in his above-mentioned "Notes on Nullification" with regard to the Virginia Resolutions of 1798 and 1799. The basic importance of this topic makes it deserving always of thoughtful consideration. [book published 1963].I hope this explains my positions and thoughts on the Courts and their Limited powers, JMHO
- It does. Thanks Mangus.
- I think you misread __ I believe he is condemning the same thing you are.
AND I most heartily agree with you about getting out of the mindset that 'Case Law based on 'precedence' is settled law. EVEN John Roberts fell into that trap in his hearings!
- Is not the center piece of all Tea Party groups - RESTORING THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION ? If that is true then would it not follow that we will return all powers not enumerated in Article I section 8 to the States - now then all previous issues passed by Congress or the Courts are in the words of the the Founders/Framers/Ratifiers void as if they never occurred from the day of the usurpation.
Extending these words means the States will have considerable work to perform - selecting what they need and what they do not need as most Federal laws were one size fits all.Then and only then will the citizens of the States select legislatures that address the particular set of social and charitable issues they feel fits the needs of that particular State.
You see, fixing the one overriding problem leads to the review and repair of all issues each State see as important. Freedom is not free it requires a vast amount of energy to keep government in check. As Franklin said when asked what kind of government the Founders gave America he replied something like this "WE GAVE YOU A REPUBLIC, IF YOU CAN KEEP IT."
- Amen & Amen.
- Seems to make good sense, it appears that all side of the spectrum is active here from left to right. the positions just depend on the particular issue being debated. Most of us would agree that debate is a good thing for we all advance our knowledge base from the premises presented and the counter statements made.
My premise is that the current Federal Government - Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches have all and are continuing to usurp the Constitution. Quotes from Washington's FAREWELL ADDRESS:
ONLY THE PEOPLE CAN CHANGE THEIR CONSTITUTION
"NO CHANGE BY USURPATION" IS THE FUNDAMENTAL MOREL PRINCIPLE UNDERLYING SELF-GOVERNMENT AND RULE - BY - LAW
- I am of the ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION IS THE RULE - BY - LAW where as your legal studies and references to law schools which I am familiar with base their entire existence on CASE LAW THEORY - they are trained that PRECEDENT change or alter statues [State and Federal] and even alter the CONSTITUTION FROM IT'S ORIGINAL FORM. This belief system is flawed in that the Constitution was written to stand for all time unmodified except through the Article V Amendment process.So, If the FF&R said what they meant and meant what they said - there is no such thing as FRAMEWORK there are words and the meaning of the wards at the time they were written not modified by time, place and use. What law schools teach then becomes RULE - BY - MAN as men in robes and suits can alter the CONSTITUTION at will. We all know that there is zero support in the actual words of the RULING DOCUMENT - the CONSTITUTION. So, to argue that the courts, the legislature or the executive can change the meaning of words and clauses is repugnant to the very existence of a written Constitutional Republic.I now will quote from a book by Hamilton Abert Long [Your American Yardstick] page 146 - 147It is noteworthy that the Virginia Resolution of 1798 pertaining to Federal laws, did not use any language such as the used in above quoted Wisconsin Resolutions: "void, and of no force." In the 1830's Madison wrote a lengthy manuscript: "Notes on Nullification" in which he emphasized that the Virginia Resolutions were not intended to attempt nullification of any Federal law therefore were not a precedent for the 1832 "Ordinance of Nullification" of South Carolina, which he considered unsound. He had also discussed this topic at length in a 1830 letter to Edward Everett and a 1832 letter to N.P. Trist. Madison knew, of course, what Hamilton had made entirely clear in 1787-1788 in the Federalist (especially number 78 also number 33) to have been the understanding fo the Framing Convention: That it is the Constitution only, as the "supreme Law of the Land," which can-and does automatically-make null and void any conflicting Act of Congress. This applies equally to the other things governmental, such as Supreme court decisions. The State Ratifying Conventions also understood this. The controlling principle is this: no legislature, or government, of a State has any power, under the Constitutional system, to nullify and Federal law, or Federal court decision, and the converse is equally true. this basic principle was noted in Federalist Number 34 by Hamilton (referring to a law as and act: " . . . there is no power on either side to annul the the acts of the other." Any annulling is by the Constitution.An Important consideration needs stressing at this point. It is that a protest by a State legislature against claimed usurpation, or abuse of power is entirely sound constitutionally and traditionally as one the peaceable remedies (within the Constitutional system) available to the State, in any such situation, as indicated expressly in the Federalist number 46 by Madison. Any such Protest by a State legislature, thus acting within the constitutional system, amounts of course to nothing more that a declaration of opinion of that body without in the least affecting the fact of constitutionality, or unconstitutionality, as the case may be, of the Act of Congress in question. Madison made the point expressly in his clarifying discussion in his above-mentioned "Notes on Nullification" with regard to the Virginia Resolutions of 1798 and 1799. The basic importance of this topic makes it deserving always of thoughtful consideration. [book published 1963].I hope this explains my positions and thoughts on the Courts and their Limited powers, JMHO
- It does. Thanks Mangus.
- unnamed author . .I believe this issue goes beyond "social" issues. The core principles of the TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party of Constitutionally limited government, fiscal responsibility and free market principles are well known to us as well as many Americans not associated directly with our movement. The reason is because we have communicated our position well. The same cannot be said regarding not only our but also most Americans social, moral and spiritual ideologies.
Regretably the Liberal Progressive agenda of social justice, collectivism and political correctness have choked any reasonable expression regarding these issues. In true Progressive fashion any opposition to their supposed accepted elitist positions create an upheaval of labelling. If you object to amnesty you are racist. If you object to abortion you are a Right Wing Christian zealot. If you object to unconventional marriage or DADT you are a homophobe. If you object to a mosque being built 2 blocks from ground zero you are a Islamaphobe. Any other social issue you object to against the lamestream medias position they just label you a pantaphobe (fear of everything). And Progressives have the balls to call us hate mongerers?
This is the level of confusion and illogic we find ourselves struggling against today. America was built on a Federal Constitutional Republic foundation of Inalienable Rights bestowed on us by our Creator and conservative principles. At least it was until the 20th century. Then arose the Progressive movement started by Teddy Roosevelt and expanded by Wilson, FDR, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, Clinton and to a degree the Bush presidencies. The eventual result is the current "fundamental transformation" of America we are having forced on us. If we allow it. This is the reason we, as a voice of reason, must not only promote our core values, we must embrace them and surround them with the social, moral and spiritual principles we know are proper and reasonable.
This task will be daunting as the Progressives have had nearly a century head start on our efforts. The social, moral and spiritual decay of America is obvious to anyone other than the most staunch Liberal Progressive. Remember, the goal of the liberal mind is to romanticize anything that promotes statism and collectivism as directed by the elitists and intelligencia while at the same time demonizing any principle promoting individualism or exceptionalism, especially American exceptionalism.
In answer to your question, "So, please tell me what the problem with social issues is?" The answer is as simple as what the problem with our government is.
Corruption.
- I agree with you Mangus. It is Corruption and power.And the only way to stop it is to go back to the constitution and to the founding fathers and to their path that they prepared for this country.
- I agree... I think there are many in D.C. who should be impeached, but who is going to do it. The only ones who are successfully impeached are those who are not in the inner circle.
- Anna,Notice that it takes a vote from them [House and then the Senate] to impeach anyone government representative or Federal Judge. Self policing = no policing at all.
- unnamed author . .I understand your frustration, I really do. There’s plenty of hurt coming our way and I also believe it will. Be that as it may this struggle and race against time will go on. We can't MAKE free people stand up and defend themselves any more then the progressives can MAKE them lay down and wither away. In the mean time I think the talk has value. Until the rise of the TP I did think I was alone, now I know I'm not. On that note as long as we are here and talking the movement has a chance. You mention “reality” so please, forgive my meager attempt to talk about and encourage all of our TP friends.
In 1777 the English general Howe attacked the seat of our government in Philadelphia. He took the city and Washington’s army retired to Valley Forge (and we know how much fun that was). Two days after Howe attacked Thomas Paine wrote this letter [excerpted] to encourage the citizens of Philadelphia.
“The Crisis: THOSE who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it. It is not a field of a few acres of ground, but a cause, that we are defending, and whether we defeat the enemy in one battle, or by degrees, the consequences will be the same.
Look back at the events of last winter and the present year, there you will find that the enemy's successes always contributed to reduce them. What they have gained in ground, they paid so dearly for in numbers, that their victories have in the end amounted to defeats. We have always been masters at the last push, and always shall be while we do our duty.
Men who are sincere in defending their freedom, will always feel concern at every circumstance which seems to make against them; it is the natural and honest consequence of all affectionate attachments, and the want of it is a vice. But the dejection lasts only for a moment; they soon rise out of it with additional vigor; the glow of hope, courage and fortitude, will, in a little time, supply the place of every inferior passion, and kindle the whole heart into heroism.
There is a mystery in the countenance of some causes, which we have not always present judgment enough to explain. It is distressing to see an enemy advancing into a country, but it is the only place in which we can beat them, and in which we have always beaten them, whenever they made the attempt. The nearer any disease approaches to a crisis, the nearer it is to a cure. Danger and deliverance make their advances together, and it is only the last push, in which one or the other takes the lead.
There are many men who will do their duty when it is not wanted; but a genuine public spirit always appears most when there is most occasion for it. Thank God! Gentlemen of the city and country, it is in your power, by a spirited improvement of the present circumstance, to turn it to a real advantage.
...your all is at stake; you are devoted by the enemy to plunder and destruction... the chief of plunderers, has promised his army. Thus circumstanced, you may save yourselves by a manly resistance, but you can have no hope in any other conduct. It is only those that are not in action, that feel languor and heaviness, and the best way to rub it off is to turn out, and make sure work of it.
Remember, gentlemen, that we have forces both to the northward and southward of Philadelphia, and if the enemy be but stopped till those can arrive, this city will be saved, and the enemy finally routed. You have too much at stake to hesitate. You ought not to think an hour upon the matter, but to spring to action at once.
Now our time and turn is come, and perhaps the finishing stroke is reserved for us. When we look back on the dangers we have been saved from, and reflect on the success we have been blessed with, it would be sinful either to be idle or to despair.
[To those politicians that have rejected our Constitutional Republic and survived the November elections]
What you now enjoy is only a respite from ruin; an invitation to destruction; something that will lead on to our deliverance at your expense. We know the cause which we are engaged in, and though a passionate fondness for it may make us grieve at every injury which threatens it, yet, when the moment of concern is over, the determination to duty returns. We are not moved by the gloomy smile of a worthless king, but by the ardent glow of generous patriotism.
We fight not to enslave, but to set a country free, and to make room upon the earth for honest men to live in. In such a case we are sure that we are right; and we leave to you the despairing reflection of being the tool of a miserable tyrant.”
We are facing history my Tea Party friend, the fight is on, and you’re probably right we’ve not yet seen the worst crisis in store for us, but never forget:
“The nearer any disease approaches to a crisis, the nearer it is to a cure. Danger and deliverance make their advances together, and it is only the last push, in which one or the other takes the lead.”
Good night my friends
- Well said Mangus. We can't give up the fight.
- Here is an example of what people fear - but IMO it has zero chance of gaining the support of 38 State legislatures - so it is moot. Wants to change to much and it gets complicated - just remove three offending amendments leaving the original constitution alone.
- Many have expressed fear of a run away Constitutional Convention here is a piece to inform us how the real deal actually can work:
They have engaged the enemy again -
Goldwater Institute Daily
November 4, 2010
Debunking myth of the ‘runaway’ convention
by Nick Dranias
Article V of the U.S. Constitution gives a supermajority of state legislatures the power to call a convention to restrain an overreaching federal government through targeted constitutional amendments. There is no reason to worry about a “runaway” convention because three-fourths of the states—38 states—would have to ratify whatever amendment might be proposed. Moreover, nothing in the nation’s history justifies fear of a “runaway” convention.
It is a myth that the U.S. Constitution was born of a “runaway” convention. The truth is the Convention of 1787 had an incredibly broad mandate from Congress—to establish “in these states a firm national government . . . [and] render the federal Constitution adequate to the exigencies of Government and the preservation of the Union.” In proposing the Constitution to amend the Articles of Confederation, the 1787 convention stayed well within the congressional call, as well as within the commissions of most delegates.
Although the Articles required unanimous ratification for alterations to it, and the Constitution only required ratification by nine states, the Constitution was only binding on those states that ratified it. While not every state in the Confederation initially ratified the Constitution, all of them ultimately did. In the end, the Constitution displaced the Articles of Confederation on the very terms prescribed by the Articles.
Today, the Goldwater Institute will release a new study that shows the states and Congress understood for decades after ratification that Article V provided an orderly way to make additional changes to the Constitution that would enhance its basic protection of freedom. If states choose to exercise their ultimate authority over the federal government through the Article V amendment process, history shows a “runway” convention just won’t happen.
Nick Dranias holds the Clarence J. and Katherine P. Duncan Chair for Constitutional Government and is director of the Joseph and Dorothy Donnelly Moller Center for Constitutional Government at the Goldwater Institute.
Learn More:
Goldwater Institute: Amending the Constitution by Convention: A Complete View of the Founders’ Plan
Yale Law School: Report of Proceedings in Congress, February 21, 1787
Restoringfreedom.org: A powerful idea whose time has come
- Here is the original Eagle Forum article . . negative on Article V - read all the information that has been provided and read Robert Natelson' works and I think you will see that she like others are just spouting opinions without actual Constitutional support. They have no language in the original Constitution so they create fog and wind.
Good Advice Against a Con Con
Suggestions that the United States call a new constitutional convention, as allowed in the Constitution's Article V, have popped up in some state legislatures and even on a page in The Wall Street Journal. No longer do these voices claim a convention can be limited to consideration of a single amendment (e.g., a balanced budget amendment) -- grandstanding politicians are proposing a wide assortment of many amendments to produce big changes.Speaking to us from across the years, the father of the U.S. Constitution, James Madison, wrote this warning on Nov. 2, 1788, against calling another general constitutional convention."If a General Convention were to take place for the avowed and sole purpose of revising the Constitution, it would naturally consider itself as having a greater latitude than the Congress appointed to administer and support as well as to amend the system; it would consequently give greater agitation to the public mind; an election into it would be courted by the most violent partisans on both sides; it would probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters; would be the very focus of that flame which has already too much heated men of all parties; would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts but inadmissible in other parts of the Union might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations of the fabric."Under all these circumstances it seems scarcely to be presumable that the deliberations of the body could be conducted in harmony, or terminate in the general good. Having witnessed the difficulties and dangers experienced by the first Convention which assembled under every propitious circumstance, I should tremble for the result of a Second, meeting in the present temper of America, and under all the disadvantages I have mentioned."Madison's prophetic warnings against a general convention to amend our Constitution (now colloquially called a Con Con) are even more compelling today. Let's examine them.1) A new convention would "naturally consider itself as having a greater latitude than the Congress" to amend the Constitution. Indeed, that's exactly what the Con Con advocates want: a convention to do what Congress won't do.2) A Con Con would "give greater agitation to the public mind." Indeed, a Con Con would attract dozens of groups agitating for various changes, creating a bigger media event than even a presidential election and dominated by mainstream media and theatrical demonstrators.3) The election of Con Con delegates "would be courted by the most violent partisans on both sides." Although Nancy Pelosi would probably be in charge of the numbers and apportionment of Con Con delegates, their election would surely attract "violent partisans on both sides" of many issues.4) The Con Con would "probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters ... heated men of all parties." Think a repeat performance of the way the Obama crowd turned out voters in 2008 through his "Organizing for America." Think ACORN, illegal voters and vote frauds.5) The Con Con "would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts ... might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations" of our Constitution. A Con Con would, indeed, be a big attraction for individuals of "insidious" and "dangerous" views that could eat away at the foundations of liberty and a sovereign independent republic.These would include pressure groups seeking an elimination of the Second Amendment, global governance through treaty law, deletion of the provision that requires a two-thirds majority of senators to ratify treaties (the favorite change urged by the Council on Foreign Relations), the addition of new constitutional rights (such as same-sex marriage and health care), elimination of the Electoral College, and other "insidious" and "dangerous" changes.6) We could not presume that "the deliberations of the body could be conducted in harmony." "Harmony"? You must be dreaming! Indeed, it would be a wild and raucous political event of world-class magnitude.Have you ever attended a hotly contested Republican or Democratic national nominating convention? Think the Democrats in Chicago in 1968 or Republicans in San Francisco in 1964 or Chicago in 1952. Now imagine the Obama demonstrators and the John McCain demonstrators trying to agree on language to adopt.7) Madison trembled for the result of another convention in the "temper of America" in his time. We should, indeed, tremble for the result "in the present temper of America." Think Obama's proclaimed goal of "fundamentally transforming the United States of America."8) Madison reminded us that the first Constitutional Convention "assembled under every propitious circumstance." Those propitious circumstances included having George Washington as convention chairman. Somehow, we don't see any George Washington or James Madison today, and we don't want to put our fate in the hands of men who think they can improve on the work of George Washington and James Madison.
- Hey guys,Many people are scared of Con Con. This is an article by Henry Lamb explaining:http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/33821This was my response:
Henry, I see your point and it bears attention. So if not Art. V, then how can we can we repeal the 17th Amendment? The 17th Amendment was created when the states wanting to have a Con Con, and this scared Congress into passing an Amendment(17th)to stop the states (from Con Con). Can we reverse it the same way?
- Unnamed author . . .Let me make one suggestion up front: don't call it a Con-Con. That is a "con-job" and a very misleading term. It is properly called “[A] Convention for proposing Amendments, which. . . shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution.” U.S. Const. Article V. (The Constitution is printed here,http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution/Constitution.html go take a look). Or, in the alternative, call it "an Article V Convention."There is no authority--and IMO no possibility--of a runaway convention.Congress certainly has the power to call a General Convention to write a new Constitution if they so choose; however, that is not the same as an Article V Convention which could only offer "Amendments to this Constitution." Again, q.v. the Constitution posted on the house.gov website. If you want to make a fair comparison, look at the Articles of Confederation vs. the Constitution: http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.art.html. The Articles of Confederation were defective and ineffectual AND CONGRESS CALLED A GENERAL CONVENTION SPECIFICALLY TO WRITE A NEW CONSTITUTION. Thatain't what an Article V Convention is all about.Amendments from an Article V Convention would be treated exactly the same as an amendment or amendments proposed by Congress. No more and no less. In either case any amendment has to be ratified by three-fourths of the States before it become effective.
- Unnamed author . . ."This is BS - and proves that those that fear a "CONVENTION" [Article V called by the States] are mostly PROGRESSIVES THAT KNOW THE STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT THEY LIKE WILL BE DESTROYED"Lock:I agree with your statement about people (including Phyllis Shafley) using "Con-Con" as a pejorative because they don't want an Article V Convention.But you left out one important way the Constitution gets amended: decisons of the United States Supreme Court (SCOTUS). Looking at the process in one way, you could fairly say, "Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy amends the Constitution." Let me explain.SCOTUS amends the Constitution all the time through their "interpretations." I have written about that several times on this and other sites. It is a main theme of my book. If anyone still doesn't understand the process or needs a reminder let me know.All it takes to amend the Constitution is for five justices to agree to amend it. But in fact, the Court is about evenly divided by four justices who usually vote together in a liberal bloc, and four justices who vote together in a conservative bloc. There are exceptions, of course, in the split. And most caes are decided with a clear majority--7-2, 9-0, 6-3 and so forth. But the bitterly contested cases that ask for judicial activists to amend the Constitution most often come down to a 4-4 split with Kennedy casting the fifth vote, which is decisive. In his first full term as the "swing vote" after O'Connor retired, Kennedy's was the deciding vote in all twenty-four of the twenty-four 5-4 votes that year.
- Unnamed author . . ."[T]hey were created by actions during the FDR all usurped."That was the beginning, but SCOTUS has become a pretty good usurper in its own right. Religious freedom is a good example. The First Amendment contains the prohibition, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" At the time the Constitution was written, the sole and exclusive law-making body was Congress. (The power of the Supreme Court to make laws was another, later usurpation). Therefore, when it says "Congress shall make no law . . ." it really means, "THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHALL MAKE NO LAW . . ."Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution of the United Statessets out the obvious--that prohibition applied only to the federal government. In fact, at the time the Constitution was ratified, all States had some kind of support or restrictions for religion--from direct tax support to requiring that all elected officeholders be of the Protestant faith. In Virginia the Anglican Church (Church of England) was the Established Church, supported by tax funds; and other religious denominations were tolerated at some times and to some degree. Still, it was not uncommon to see a Baptist preacher yelling out the window of his jail cell preaching to people in the street.Story was there when it happened. He was admitted to the practice of law in 1801--two years before Marbury v. Madison was decided. As a young lawyer, he practiced before the Supreme Court and won several landmark cases. In 1811 he was appointed as Justice of the SC and was a first-hand witness to how and why the law evolved as it did. In fact, some of his decisions shaped how the law evolved. His Commentaries are an original source on the subject and is still considered to be the standard treatise on the Constitution (except among the progressives who like the Supreme Court's "Living Constitution" which permits the Court to decide whatever they can get five votes for. To summarize, THE SUPREME COURT HAS NO JURISDICTION TO RULE ON RELIGIOUS ISSUES--UNLESS CONGRESS PASSES A LAW IN VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.How screwed-up have we become, boys and girls?
- Unnamed author . . .Article XIV.Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.Section 2. [Representatives apportioned]Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress,. . .[if they] shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion.Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, [affirmed] . . . [but not] any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States.Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.The Due Process Clause in the 14th was already in the 5th Amendment; the Equal Protection Clause was meant to overturnDred Scott and other federal decisions and state "Black Codes" denying citizenship rights to freed slaves. And the primary reason for the 14th was to give citizenship to freed slaves.It conferred no new powers on the Supreme Court; the new powers--which I contend are no longer relevant (there are no living ex-slaves, the U.S. Civil War debt has long since been paid, privileges and immunities are guaranteed to all citizens)--were conferred onCongress.We could repeal the 14th and nobody would notice except for the shills for the civil rights hustlers.The 17th Amendment provided for direct election of Senators, but gave no new powers to the Supreme Court.Every substantial change to the Constitution, [beginning with the 1803 case, Marbury v. Madison] the Supreme Court has made, I contend, has been a usurpation.
- Ifeel it necessary to add this method as it is used in some States but there is no provision for it to be used in the Federal Article V process. This is added so we may be informed to combat those that like to misrepresent the process to create fear and confusion. We must believe after reading all this information that those that are benefiting from the current usurpation that the Progressives have spent 100+ years twisting to justify their unconstitutional actions and governance. The Progressives realize that their powers will be extinguished like a super hard rain on a forest fire, yes the fire is huge but the rain is more powerful.
Constitutional Topic: Ratification Conventions
The Constitutional Topics pages at the USConstitution.net site are presented to delve deeper into topics than can be provided on theGlossary Page or in the FAQ pages. This Topic Page concerns Amendment Ratification Conventions. Article 5 details a couple of ways that an amendment to the Constitution can be proposed - either through Congress or through a Constitutional Convention. However an amendment is proposed, the final step is ratification. Two methods for ratification are provided - by three-fourths of the state legislatures or by three-fourths of the states in convention. This topic concerns the latter of these two.
Ratification ConventionsThe normal course of events, when an amendment to the Constitution has been desired by the people, is for Congress to pass the amendment and for the state legislatures to then ratify. Congressional proposal of the amendment is by a two-thirds majority vote in both houses. State ratification is by three-fourths majority.The Constitution does provide for one other way to ratify: by convention. A state convention differs from the state legislature in that it is usually an entirely separate body from the legislature. This introduces a different political dynamic into the amendment process.The only time that conventions have been used was in the case of the21st Amendment, which overturned the 18th Amendment. The 18th abolished alcohol manufacture or sales on a national scale. The 21st repealed the 18th, stating instead that each state shall have the ability to set its own laws regarding liquor. The text of the 21st specifically stated that it would have to be ratified by conventions held in each state:3. The article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.Why specify conventions over legislatures, as every other amendment had been ratified up to then? The thought was that the people of the conventions, which would typically be average citizens, would be less likely to bow to political pressure to reject the amendment than elected officials would be. Note that the Supreme Court has ruled that a popular referendum is not a substitute for either the legislature nor a convention, nor can a referendum approve of or disapprove of the legislature's or a convention's decision on an amendment.
The Vermont ExampleAll of that out of the way, how does a ratification convention work? In the legislature, the method is simple: propose a bill of ratification and vote it up or down. But a convention gets more complicated because it is by necessity separate and different from the legislature. For this discussion, I will use the convention method of Vermont as a model (17 VSC 1811 - 1825).The first step is proposal. Once Congress has proposed an amendment that is to be approved by convention, the governor has 60 days to call for an election of delegates to the convention, and the setting of a date for those elections. Note that the Vermont code does not contemplate the calling of ratifying conventions from a national amendment convention, though the same procedures would likely be followed.Fourteen persons are elected to be members of the convention. They are elected at large, meaning that each voter would cast votes for fourteen people, with the top fourteen vote-getters being elected. The election must take place from three to twelve months after the governor's call. The convention must take place 20 to 30 days after the election. The convention itself is held in the Senate chamber in the state capital.The candidates themselves are selected from a list of 28 possible Vermont citizens. All 28 candidates are selected by the governor, lieutenant governor, and speaker of the house. The persons selected must agree to be placed on the ballot - 14 of whom are opposed to ratification, 14 of whom are in favor. The ballots are to be plainly marked so that voters can decide based on the candidate's stand on the issue, or on name recognition. The state has 14 counties - each county is to have one "pro" and one "con" candidate. Voters can vote for all "For" or all "Against," or any combination.The elected delegates meet on the appointed date, with the majority of those elected being a quorum. The code does not detail how the convention is to conduct its business aside from the fact that there will be a chairman and that the secretary of state will be the secretary of the convention, and those two persons will certify the results of the convention's vote. The convention might only last 15 minutes, or it could drag out for several days for debate. However long the convention takes, delegates are provided a stipend of $10.00 and reimbursement of actual expenses.
The New Mexico and Florida ExamplesFor comparison, the rules of New Mexico were randomly chosen. The procedure in New Mexico is vastly different (reference section 1-18-1 of the New Mexico Code). To start, the governor has only 10 days to call a convention, which seems short until the members of the convention are mentioned. Each member of the state legislature is a member of the convention, and the convention is held in the House chamber. No special election is called to appoint delegates. The code does effectively limit the convention to three days by refusing to pay the delegates for more than three days of work.Lastly, the rule of Florida were chosen for comparison. The Florida rules are in 9 FSC 107.01 - 107.11. In Florida, the convention is made up of 67 members. The governor has 45 days to call an election to be held from five to ten months after Congress issues the proposed amendment. Anyone can apply to be a member of the convention, with the state qualifications for the state House being used as an eligibility test. Candidates can officially declare that they are for or against the amendment, or apply unannounced. An application fee of $25 and a 500-name petition are also required. On the ballots, candidates are listed in three categories: for, against, and undecided. There is also provision for write-in candidates. The vote is at large, meaning that the 67 top vote-getters in the state win the 67 seats in the convention. The meeting is held on the second Tuesday following the election. Delegates are not compensated per diem or for expenses.Each state, then, has differing procedures for the calling and holding of their ratification conventions. But in the end, the yay or nay votes of the conventions are what allows an amendment to pass or be rejected.
- Unnamed author . . .After readng some of the other posts, may I respectfully suggest that from here on, anybody who uses the term "Con-Con" on this site be considered a troll or a mole until they can demonstrate otherwise. I am not trying to stifle free speech, Anyone who wants to use the term "Con-Con" is certainly free to do so. I want merely to put you on notice that all of the people I know or have communicated with, who want an Article V Convention, don't use the term "Con-Con;" and we are suspicious of the motives of those who do use the term.
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